An informal, quick poll (discussion) Topic

dedelman
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Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 9/10/2009Isn't the point of this game to mimic MLB as closely as possible?
Abso-freakin' lutely NOT, in matters that are directly related to the hard cap (which is, of course, very different from MLB). In fact, one of the most common arguments I've seen used against cash sales is that it's cheating the hard cap somehow to get extra cash.I still veto the vast majority of cash deals. But I disagree with tec's statement in the context of a cash sales discussion.
9/10/2009 7:24 AM
toddcommish
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Quote: Originally Posted By tednash on 9/10/2009So it sounds like most of us are in agreement. It should NOT be a HBD imposed rule, but up to each world's owners. And if you disagree with the majority in your world, leave it.Sounds good to me.
The clearest, most concise summation.Sometimes n00bs say the darnedest things...
9/10/2009 7:27 AM
tednash
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Quote: Originally Posted By toddcommish on 9/10/2009The clearest, most concise summation.Sometimes n00bs say the darnedest things...
I'm a n00b to HBD, not common sense.
9/10/2009 7:32 AM
MikeT23
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I could argue that if I wanted. This is an open forum. People are going to discuss what they want to discuss. A fella with common sense would know that.
9/10/2009 7:53 AM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 9/10/2009This "discussion" happens every 2-3 months.It's been established that everyone has a limit. Can an owner sell 5 players? 10? 20? 30? Only the 'tardiest of 'tards say "It's his team, he can do what he wants. Cash is a resource." Because, once you say that, you've opened up Pandora's Box. You're saying "As long as he finds a taker, it's OK with me." And that means any trade is OK in your book. You're either OK with prospects for cash or you're not. You can't close the gate once a couple of cows escape, you have to let the whole damn herd run free. And once that happens, you're the next world saying "Only need 11 to start playing tomorrow!!"
9/10/2009 7:54 AM
silentpadna
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One bone of contention I have in all this is the premise that somehow someone is gaining a budget advantage by receiving cash as part of a trade. The Cash portion of your ***ets is the only thing that is guaranteed to be equal among owners at the beginning of the season. By no means whatsoever are all ***ets equal among owners. The fact that the ***ets are unequal are what creates the various markets in the first place. Competition for new ***ets or exchanging of same is the entire point of this game. When you arbitrarily limit the use of one type of ***et over another, it is inherently unfair.

For example, suppose Team A has a strong system from ML to RL and has plenty of ***ets. Team B is a reclamation project and has a trashed minor league system and very little MLB talent. If he keeps a low payroll, why can't he use the one ***et he has (cash) to help himself? Why should he have less of an ability to use an ***et than Team A?

I realize this can be abused or hurt a world if it's not done smartly. But so can any unbalanced trade. If it can hurt a world in some circumstances, it does not logically follow that it would in all circumstances.


9/10/2009 7:56 AM
MikeT23
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Briefly, you don't know the value of cash until it's applied.I could take 5m and use it for 15 minimum wage players.I could take 5m and use it for one quickly declining RP.I could take 5m and use if for one monster RF in his last season of arb. You're trading 5m to acquire prospect A. You know the value you're getting. The problem is the value you're trading away. No one knows what it is until it's applied. Suddenly one owner has 190m to utilize while his opponents are stuck at 185m. Suppose he sells 5 prospects. Now he has 210m. 10 prospects? 235m. 20 prospects? 285m. All he has to do is find a buyer. Maybe you think that career minor leaguer is worth 5m. So you buy him. The guy selling hasn't given up anything.
9/10/2009 8:04 AM
Crump123
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 9/10/2009Then "people" should probably quit saying "It happens in MLB".

Corey Brock at MLB.com reports that the Padres will receive cash in return for pitcher Chad Gaudin, who was traded to the Yankees August 7. The sum the Padres will receive is "believed to be" $100,000, according to Brock.

The deal was initially reported to be for a player to be named later. As it turns out, the Padres had until September 1 to decide between a PTBNL and cash considerations.

WEDNESDAY: A press release from the Orioles says the Twins will receive a player to be named later or cash considerations.

One quick google search is all it takes, it happens more than people who say "it doesn't happen" think, but less than people who say all the time.
9/10/2009 8:09 AM
tecwrg
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Right. It should be obvious that there's a huge difference between selling a prospect for $200k in MLB where there's no cap, and selling a prospect for $5m in HBD where there's a hard cap.The pro-cash people believe that they should have the uncontested right to do the latter.
9/10/2009 8:29 AM
MikeT23
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Just as a point of reference, does anyone think Washington could sell Straussberg?It would make sense on their end. They aren't competing with or without him. Straussberg doesn't want to be there. Washington could use the cash to sign 10 prospects for 500k(which would do more for their team than 1 pitcher).It would make sense for the Sux or Yanks. They replenish their pitching. They have the money. I'm sure Straussberg would rather play for a legit BL team with legit BL players behind him.Could it happen?
9/10/2009 8:34 AM
silentpadna
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Quote: Originally posted by tecwrg on 9/10/2009The pro-cash people believe that they should have the uncontested right to do the latter.

I don't think that's a fair representation of the position. As near as I can tell there is no "uncontested" right to do any kind of deal in HBD between teams. The veto tool is there for each to use.

My own position on this is that cash in trades is allowed in the rules, cash is valued differently by every owner depending on context, and as an ***et can be used by each owner as they deem necessary. The veto rule is there to allow the league members to police the practice as it applies to their worlds.

I oppose the 'all cash in trades other than salary match' arbitrary 'rule' for reasons I've expressed elsewhere, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. I've noticed that the general disagreement on this lies with how cash is defined and how it is set up in the premise of the debate. This is a lot like the abortion debate, where how the premise is set up determines the argument. But the problem is that neither side can agree on the premise to argue from so both sides end up arguing two different things and talking past each other.

My .02 (or less) anyway.

9/10/2009 8:47 AM
Crump123
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 9/10/2009Just as a point of reference, does anyone think Washington could sell Straussberg?It would make sense on their end.  They aren't competing with or without him.  Straussberg doesn't want to be there.   Washington could use the cash to sign 10 prospects for 500k(which would do more for their team than 1 pitcher).It would make sense for the Sux or Yanks.  They replenish their pitching.  They have the money.   I'm sure Straussberg would rather play for a legit BL team with legit BL players behind him.Could it happen?
Could they, yes, for comfortably more than $20M. Will it? No. I'd consider the money would have little value to the nationals, unless someone was trying to ***et strip. Purely because they wouldnt be able to adequately reinvest it in talent to make the ML side stronger. If they fet they could sell strasburg and invest the $ to make themselves instant conteders next season, i think there would be serious intrenal discussions about it..

Coming from europe, where player movement is goverened by a player market, i've often wondered what would happen if someone with oodles of $ came in and just started to offer $ for established players...

If you considered the european market in the proposal, then it would be consiered normal to sell strasburg and use the $ to recruit other players.
9/10/2009 9:01 AM
MikeT23
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The object of a trade is to better your team. If you're not making your team better in some way, shape or form, you shouldn't be trading.As I've mentioned, I don't know what you're going to do with the cash received but, under my trade guidelines, it should be something that will make your team better. Until you use that cash, I don't know if the value traded is even. Uneven trades are the ones that should be vetoed "in the best interest of the world".Hope this helps.
9/10/2009 9:02 AM
snake_p
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Is this another "trading cash is illegal" thread? How stupid. What is there that people cannot get their little minds around? Does anyone remember the thread where silentpadna totally put that argument to bed? Look it up.
9/10/2009 9:25 AM
new
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MLB Examples of Selling a Prospect: http://arizona-diamondbacks.info/549/arizona-diamondbacks-baseball/prospect-acquired-for-cash-could-fit-into-rotation-mix/(former Mets Minor league Pitch of the Year and traded for Johan before being dealt for cash) http://ballhype.com/story/tigers_trade_josh_anderson_to_kansas_city_for_cash/http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?content_id=327475&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb&ymd=20071204Cash for a Rule-V pick. There are lots of others, google 'baseball trade cash considerations' or something similar.
9/10/2009 9:29 AM
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